Interview
with Kinsey Katchka, Ph.D.
Curator at North Carolina Museum of Art
KK- In your recent work, the paintings I saw in Cairo you were
using some Arabic script in your new paintings--what was the text; particular
words or phrases?
KH- those are phrases written in Arabic calligraphy;
the words give the impression that they are “sacred” texts,
though in fact they are not; they are just adages ore wise phrases used
throughout the last few centuries tackling issues of hard work, perfection,
manners and other day-to-day advice used immensely by Sufi cultures. I
use those for the visual aesthetics as additives to the content, and they
are used in final layers of the paintings when I am finishing, like the
last applied elements.
KK- Maybe a place to start would be to ask, what is 'Sufism' in
your mind? And what draws you to it now?
KH- Sufism is Sufism, not just in my mind?.
Many Egyptian artists of all disciplines are drawn to Sufism as a source
of inspiration for research in themes of identity, gender, spirituality,
as well as a reference to rely on in juxtaposition to the current state
of mainstream religion in the Middle East; as a matter of fact, not just
the Middle East, but also global Islamic trends today are much influenced
by those dominating the Middle East; those trends are much ignited, supported
and financed by certain countries and religious organizations in the region
as part of struggle of wealth and power.
I personally am drawn to certain streaks of liberal thought of Sufi nature
rather than Sufism as cult. My reason, I guess is the tolerance, and the
existential yet disciplined love of life. While traditional streams of
Islam did not/does not encourage (and even some prohibit) artistic and
creative forms of expression, Sufism encouraged and developed chant, music,
dance, poetry and multidisciplinary creative expression as a meditative
tool to explore the way to the ultimate creator.
KK- what I have in mind is that though Huda Lutfi is the only
one who spoke overtly about the relationship between her work and Sufism,
several aspects of her work that she connects with Sufi elements I also
see in the work of other Cairo artists: you, Hazem el Mestikawy, Adel
el Siwi, even some of Maha Maamoun's and Sabah Naim's work. Thoughts?
KH- we should never also forget Nermine Hammam; I think
with Huda Lutfi, those two artists are the most conspicuous examples of
Sufi-related art practice today. In the sixties and seventies there were
artists (now in official local mainstream art history considered masters)
like Hamed Nada and Abdelhadi el Gazzar who tried to “consciously”
and “voluntarily” identify themselves as interested or probing
or curious about Sufi elements. In the seventies and eighties this became
even more talked about in Master’s and PhD thesis, identifying artists
like El Nashar among others as having Sufi trends. With all due respect
to all “official masters”, I personally believe that the practices
of several contemporary artists working today, like the names you mentioned,
Nermine Hammam and Huda Lutfi are much more “authentic”: they
reflect true research, commitment and involvement in the practice and
theory of Sufism.
KK- It would be helpful if you could tell me more about the connection
to Sufi is as you have been thinking about this new direction in your
work.
KH- I have seen Egypt changing over three decades; I
have seen the change of a liberal society with a multiplicity and diversity
of thought onto a closed conservative society, nearly mono-voiced that
thinks-talks-and-walks religious slogans in which moderate tolerant voices
are undermined by a noisier fanatic monologue that adores death and worships
the fear of the after-life.
If you see several contemporary Egyptian artists today approaching or
tackling Sufi issues, it is due to the tolerant and flexible perspective
of the Sufi culture, a culture that approaches the Creator through meditation,
beauty, love, perfection, exquisite performance, and a near-carnal love
of life. So you see it is this struggle of the love of the after-life
versus the love of life that drives artists to the latter option as a
refuge from the current dreadful religious monologue.
In my own work, I am interested in this love of life and perfection in
Sufism, though my imagery may not be as overtly connected like the work
of Nermine Hammam, or like that of Huda Lutfi.
KK- You say that your work has been about identity for a long
time (this I know), 'so it relates somehow' to Sufism. It isn't readily
apparent to me how this necessarily follows. Could you clarify?
KH- Of course, I always had a problem there; perhaps
I suffer “flight of ideas”, a condition in which my thoughts
are faster than what I am able to say or describe?.
In my use of Arabic calligraphy as a new element in my painting, I try
to probe my Arabo-Islamic identity. In my painting I worked for around
20 years on examining the ancient Egyptian aspect in my identity, while
the Arabo-Islamic “facets” of this identity have been probed
only in my videos, particularly Idlers’ Logic, Obsessive Compulsive
Neurosis, Idlers’ Clip and Revolution.
Now with exceptionally stylized calligraphy introduced in the paining,
there is an insinuation of poetry and calligraphy, two disciplines of
the Arabo-Islamic culture that were encouraged and developed by Sufis
for centuries.
KK- I recall that you have spoken about having pulled back from Islam
and aren't a devout believer in your adult life despite your upbringing.
Is this rejection of Islamic practice also mean a distancing from the
tenets of Sufism?
KH- here I must say that rejection is not at all against
Islam as a religion, but definitely against the current mainstream Islam
and the prevailing Islamic institution; the struggle between different
factions and currents is reminiscent of what happened with the Nation
of Islam in the sixties of the twentieth century, where everyone is apostatizing
everyone else, and everyone claims to be the “official agency of
God”.
The problem today that it is no more the sixties when more or less law
was respected. Today there is techno-terrorism, and religion became a
business, just like the pharmaceutical business and the arms business.
I personally renounce all that; I saw it coming with the assassination
of Sadat, I was 18 then, and I had lived a very liberal adolescence, and
saw the country “closing down”. As someone who had seen the
past (liberal) and the present (conservative), I renounce the present
state.
As an artist I renounce the current religious intolerant ideologies.
Sufi practices, writings, music and poetry became a recognized source
of inspiration to artists today; it is literally the only form of a link
to any religion that is acceptable for me. It is attractive for me to
use such elements in a process of cultural revisionism.
KK- One thing that recurs in my work in Dakar and also in Cairo is recycling
and repetition, both literally and more conceptually; this element of
Huda's work is overt and conscious, obviously. But this comes into play
in your work/aesthetic, even in your work, though i know you don't think
of it in terms of Sufism. Any thoughts?
KH- See, in ancient Egyptian art as in the few figurative
Islamic illustration/painting that came to us, there is always text to
illustrate the painting, or painting to illustrate the text; they do not
forcibly have to relate or describe each other, but they are “visual
complementary”, sometimes indispensable for the overall visual aesthetics
of the work. I try to probe and experiment in the mindset of those artists,
sort of contemporary interpretation of elements, themes, subjects and
thoughts that have been done over and over again; it is my own personal
historical recycling.
Technically, in both ancient Egyptian painting and Islamic painting, artists
never used what we know in the post renaissance painting as “composition”;
in both historical periods the artists used a style of “lay-outing”
used today in graphic designs for the purpose of creating simple narrative;
I try to apply this in my painting, also aiming to some extent to attain
a visual narrative simple and attainable yet aesthetic enough to be art
?.
KK- You say that you've explored your Arab-Islamic identity in
your film; does this include elements of Sufism or not so much?
KH- In film I do not use written texts to express ideas; I did that in
idlers’ logic (2003) and before in visions of cheeseburger memory
(2001) to express certain ideas; I used slang Egyptian, arabic or English
texts of words or phrases that were/are déjà vu and accessible
to the layman. I even always use very scarce dialogue to accentuate the
imagery; I am interested in depicting the image of Arabs/Middle Easters
in action, like in idlers' logic, revolution, idlers' clip and obsessive
compulsive neurosis.
Sufism has nothing palpable to do in my film works; it is not a concern
here. As you know and as i always say, "the medium dictates the contents"...it
would be too much to incorporate political and social, then add overt
religious research...i cannot do it, perhaps someone else can:)
KK- I’m not necessarily trying to draw firm parallels by
comparing Dakar and Cairo, but pointing out certain resonant elements
that seem to operate in similar ways to affirm relevance of urban experience--this
despite the fact that they are embedded in distinct, and disparate,
local local/regional/national histories. What do you think?
KH- I think you may have a clear point there; don’t
forget that Senegal and Mali can confidently represent the moderate African
Islam, while Egypt for centuries played the same role for the Middle East.
For Egypt, Just let’s pretend to forget the rising extreme religious
right in the past three decades, especially after the military (and consequently
ideological) defeat of 1967, and the terrorist attacks of the nineties;
Egypt still represents moderate Islam in the Middle East; Egypt played
a massive inspirational role in the independence of many African countries,
and memories of the good old days of the fifties and sixties are still
remembered. This on the ideological and political fronts; on the urban
experience front, I would say there may be some resemblance in terms of
the new laws and players of globalization: richer rich, poorer poor, multinational-transcontinental
corporations, too rapid social change, corruption, political abuse, etc.
Also the most important point of resemblance, both cities are major points
of attraction for international art projects.
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